In an new in-depth New York Times interview released today, Jimmy Iovine and Larry Jackson explain some fine points of their artistic relationships on the Apple Music platform. The pair detail on why hip-hop and R&B artists have seen a surge in streaming, how they maintain their relationships with artists despite labels, and the impact of Apple Music’s platform on piracy.

The interview kicks right off asking for clarity on the “huge surge in streaming for hip-hop and R&B artists” we’ve seen. Larry Jackson answers it head on by explaining that the shift occurred before Apple Music even arrived to the marketplace. He also explains that when he looks at the top albums of the year, “How is that not pop? You don’t hear Frank Ocean or J. Cole on pop radio, but streaming has ushered in what the new pop is.”

Another highlight of the interview was when the pair were asked if the idea of exclusives can push listeners to downloading music illegally. Jackson mentions how “simplicity and design of what we and other services have been able to do has made privacy probably more of an inconvenience and less of an appealing idea than it once was…”

After much back and forth, Jackson sets the record straight with Kanye West’s “Saint Pablo“, while Iovine says that West was a part of Jay’s thing [Tidal] and he wanted to make a “deal with his friend”. This didn’t stop them, as Iovine adds, “You try to do the best with that you’ve got and ignore everything else.”

Then when asked about Frank Ocean’s interesting release method, to get out of his Def Jam contract, Jimmy said he and Apple Music had no plans to get one over on Universal.

“We wanted to work with Frank Ocean. We had a deal — we were working with Frank Ocean, and he controlled where his music came out,” he says. “Why would it be in our interest to be part of a fast one, a slow one or any one? We were getting the record no matter what. Whatever happened with him and Universal is really between him and Universal. It has nothing to do with us. Nothing.”

Read more about the detailed conversation over at  XXL.